萧煌(中国美术家协会油画艺术委员会学术秘书，以下简称“萧”)

　　Xiao Huang (Secretary of the Oil Painting Art Committee of the China Artists Association, below to referred to as Xiao)

　　徐明(油画艺术家，以下简称“徐”)

　　Xu Ming (Oil Painting artist, below to referred to as Xu)

　　萧：您原来学过漆画，后又进美院研习西方油画古典传统技法;生活上您从贵州来到中山，偏安一隅专职油画创作。这种学习和生活上的经历对您现在的创作有什么影响?

　　Xiao: You learned acquer painting first and then you went to the academy of fine arts for Western classical traditional oil painting. Your hometown is Guizhou Province, but you live and do painting in the Zhongshan city of Guangdong Province Why? Do the experiences have effect on your creation?

　　徐：中国有着七千年漆器历史和三千多年漆画历史，是漆器和漆画的发源地。漆画由于其丰富的材质和色彩语言，经几千年的历史积沉，其技艺语言“千文万华”，因此漆画是中华民族具有悠久民族材料特性的独立画种，是属于中国的“油画”。人们通常将西洋油画称之为“舶来品”，而西方真正采用油彩来作画始于十五世纪上半叶，弗拉芒兄弟用一种特制的油来调和颜料，从此油彩就可在麻布、木板等材质平面上作画。而同时期华夏子孙们已经能熟练的运用漆艺技术并运用到日常生活家具和器皿中。所以今天用油彩去作画的人去了解和研究一下漆画是有必要的。你会从两种材料语言中发现很多异同性，在比较中能拓宽材料的语言表现特性。我认为油画对中国人来讲既陌生又熟悉，陌生的是对油画的理解，油画这个物质载体所传承的文化属性。我们借用油彩去作画，除了造型语言的借鉴以外，更应在具体形式的基础上，表达和描述我们当下中国人的情感和精神生活状态。我想我们今天画油画更应注重语言基础上所要表述的内容本身，去运用好这种媒介优势。

　　Xu: China has a 7000 year history of lacquer ware and over 3,000 year history of lacquer painting and is the home of lacquer ware and lacquer painting. Lacquer painting, because of its rich texture and color language, becomes a distinctively traditional Chinese art, a Chinese painting. Chinese people commonly call Western oil painting "an import". The West really started to paint by paint in the first half of the 15th century, when Flemish brothers used a special oil to blend with colors. Oils have since been used in paint on the flat surface of materials such as linen and wood board. And during the same period, Chinese already could skillfully utilize lacquer painting and apply it in furniture and utensil making. So, today, China’s oil painters are necessary to learn and study lacquer painting to know their differences and widen their own artistic expression forms. I think, oil painting, for Chinese people, is both strange and familiar---we maybe don’t completely understand the cultural property of oil painting. What we paint with oils to show shouldn’t be just the forms of objects, but more the emotional and spiritual state of present Chinese. I think today’s our oil paintings should more represent the content itself and be a good medium.

　　至于走出贵州是偶然也是必然，贵州是我的根，贵州之外的世界是我需要去探寻的，生命的意义在远方，我们的成长都是一种出走的过程。我现在也遇到一种尴尬，在广东我是客居，回到贵州朋友们却把我当做广东来的客人。来到南方最大的收获是我养成了一种良好的心态，心跳的速度得到控制，身心获得一种悠闲宽适的安养，外在的事物沉到内心深处。其实，生命注定是一种流浪之旅，在这个过程，我们不断地收获艰辛与快乐。

　　Leaving Guizhou is both incidental and necessary, in which my roots are. The world outside of Guizhou is the place I need to explore: The meaning of life is in the distance. Our growth is also a process of getting out. I have a bit of awkwardness. In Guangdong, I am a guest, but when coming back to my hometown, I am regarded as a guest by friends where live in Guizhou. The greatest gain which living in Guangdong gives me is that I have a good mentality, the beating of my heart gets controlled, and external things don’t bother me. In fact, life is bound to be a wandering journey, on which we would continue to collect hardness and happiness.

　　萧：看您的写生作品，有一种“意兴清谈”之感，即经过主观的提炼，不在乎形似之似，而是在现实情境中，注重调控生活的感受，对内在情感与外在物象达成一种相融互生的状态。请问您如何处理这种写生中的创造性?

　　Xiao: Your paintings mostly show a flavor of simple interest, that is to say that in painting, you highlight the connection between internal emotions and objects to being similar in shape. Please how do you deal with the problem of creativity in painting?

　　徐：怎样去经营画面这始终是画画人要做的事，客观的去对事物进行属性描写，那应是一个人造型能力的体现。我们的自我行为总是受自己情感的驱使，而在写生过程中有很多促发的东西，与客观对象即时现场性的心性交流，使我们更有机会去完成对自我行为新的认识。这种认识使我们获得自由，在偶然性与必然性之间，在惯性之外将生命的潜在特性和外在事物的勃勃生机链接起来，在能量和气场上滋养我们的创作。所以我认为写生是为创作做准备。

　　Xu: How to make pictures is always painters’ business. How to objectively depict the properties of things depends on an artist’s styling ability. Our behaviours are always driven by our own feelings and in sketching, there are many casual things. So, our minds interacting with objects give us the opportunity to know our own behaviours. This understanding can make us get freer and combine animatedly life with objects to nourish our creation. So I think the sketching is for tcreation.

　　创造对于画家是必备的，倘若失去了创造力，那艺术就失去了生命。作为画家传送给观众的信息，应该是有促动和启示作用的，而不是平淡的重现。

　　Creativity is a must for painters: if without invention, art will also lose vitality. Information artists deliver to the audience should stimulation and enlightenment, not plain repetition.

　　萧：在中国进行室外风景写生难得有西方风景中的外光条件与丰富色彩，灰雾的光照容易导致画面的平板与寡淡。中国古人先卧游山水，再于绢布纸面上求以水墨的空灵和虚远，本身的墨色特性解决了色彩的难题。然西方油画对色彩的日光要求却是不可回避的问题，您在写生中如何面对和解决这个问题?

　　Xiao: In the Chinese natural environment, there are rarely light conditions and rich colors in the Western landscape; in here, foggy light is very usual. Ancient Chinese painters loved going sightseeing and drew in ink on silk paper. So, they had no problem of colors, but you must face this question since you are making oil paintings. How to do?

　　徐：有了光才有影，光影是视觉艺术的存在根本，不管是西方油彩对光影的理解还是东方人对实物在光影条件下的具体描述，有其共同处，都必须在有光的条件下人们才能看到影。

　　Xu: There is light and then there must be shadow. Light and shadow are the essence of Visual Arts. Western artists are similar to oriental ones in the understanding of light and shadow, not much different.

　　在我的风景写生中，我更多考虑到的是画面的整体，力求有节奏感，使画面的表达流畅，在有形的基础上去寻找画面色彩的微妙倾向，其中也吸收了不少中国画的元素，中国画中的“气”始终是精髓，气韵贯通是画面精气神的内在骨骼，而整体色调是画面精神气质的外在品相。在内外结合的基础上，通过油画语言三维空间的塑造表现，融以色彩的外光感受和情景变化，在时间的流动中传达内心的气息与气象，这也是我对油画迷恋的所在。

　　In my landscape sketching, I more consider the picture as a whole, strive for rhythm, make the depiction of the content of the picture smoother, and absorb Chinese elements. In Chinese painting, Qi, a mixture of information, energy, and material, is soul; the whole color tone of the picture is just a surface. Integrating Chinese Qi into oil painting well is a charming thing to me.

　　萧：科班出身画油画的人都有一种很深的技术迷情，重视画面肌理、笔触、用油的薄厚、边线的处理、背景空间的拉伸等。您的画面有一种静谧的空间气息，饱和润泽的油彩泛射出一种穿越时光的视觉感受，这也是艺术家内心雅质的体现。对于油画艺术表现语言本体的思考您有怎样的个性分享?

　　Xiao: Artists of college origin usually have a deep love for the technique, stressing the texture of the picture, the use of strokes and oils, edge processing, and spatial tension. Your paintings have a serene mood and a visual sense of going beyond time and space. What do you think about the ontological language of painting art?

　　徐：我总认为事物的本体是它生存的理由。就油彩而言，它的存在和魅力就能充分肯定这一点。画家们在利用油彩这种媒介去表现事物，首先就应该知道怎样熟练的运用它。这种从基础造型到富有技巧性的技术表现过程是不能缺少的，如果你词不达意或者不能言听意从是难以自由地进行艺术创作的。在画布面前，你要想到你所面对的是一件艺术品，这种创作其实是一个神圣的过程，是一种事物新生与变化的发展过程，如果认识到这一点，那这个过程就不会草率对待了。

　　Xu: I always think that the existence of things is the reason for their own being. The being of oil painting is a good evidence. The way itself that Artists represent the existence of things in oil paintings as media needs techniques and the understanding of the things themselves. Without these, paintings themselves have no meaning of existence. In making, if what you first think of is that what you are creating is an artwork with human thought, you will be serious with your creation.

　　有时真有些内疚的是人们将我们这些画画的人称之为“文化人”。文化的范畴不仅仅是技术的概念，还有社会属性、历史发展在精神领域的时代发展。我自己确实迷恋在过程中，甚至难以自拔。但我有来自内心深处的精神隐忧和自我反省，我自知画面的品质来源于个人修养，画面传达的气息取决于思想。画布上出现某种情况不是作画前能预定的，而是在过程中去碰撞与转化。对色彩的认识与运用是我作画的基本，画布上所产生的微妙细节成为我作画的乐趣。因为我是用油彩去画画，所以就得坚护一些油画基本的语言特性，这样才能称得上是名副其实的油画。

　　Sometimes, I am ashamed that we, as painters, are called as cultured. The concept of culture involves not only technique, and society but history and spirit. To me, I indulge myself with the process so that I am a bit besotted. But I have a concern from the deep heart and will do soul-searching. I realize: that the quality of the picture relies on personal cultivation, that the strength of the picture banks on thought and that inspiration has importance to making. So, watching and reflection by the heart and the understanding and use of colors is the base for my painting.

　　总之，无技不艺，在过程当中去找自己想要的东西，不是摘了西瓜丢了芝麻的过程，而是寻找适合自己内心所需的东西，这个过程它没有起点也没有终点。

　　In short, having no technique is not to have art. In making, to go to look for what to want is simply a good start, but it has no end.

　　萧：伟大的人物肖像反映的是整个时代的脸谱。您的人物创作多为身边的人，在平凡熟悉的人物形象中呈现出超越俗世生活的纯粹之美，严谨的形体空间塑造和熟稔的笔触刻画出鲜活的人物性格。对于当下世人，您如何观察、表现和塑造这种隐藏于日常生活表面内存的独立人格品性?

　　Xiao: Great portraits are a reflection of an era. Figures in your pictures were mainly modeled on people around you. Then, how do you observe the personalities of contemporary people and, express or shape them in portraits?

　　徐：每个人的生活圈是有局限性的，圈内你是主人，圈外你是客人。你熟悉的事才是你的强项，绘画是我多年来坚持的内心的选择，二十多年来的探索与努力成为我所熟悉的事物，生活中不可或缺的部分。我选择我熟悉的事物，在人物的创作上，我会尽力去描绘人物个性中优雅风度的一面，在长期的生活状态中富养出的一种温和的清淑儒雅之气。在平凡的日常生活中，我总是乐观的去寻找一些美好的东西。在遵循油彩语言本身特性的前提下去描述我内心感受到的美好，我眼中所看到的人性的柔美以及生活中蕴藏的愉悦的美。画布上的人物来自于我周围的生活，他们用一种具体的生活气息传达我所要捕捉的那种内在之美，他们的真实赋予我画面中一种良好的解读氛围。

　　Xu: Everyone has a limited circle in life, inside which you're the master, but outside which you are a guest. Painting is my own choice. I choose people around me as my painting objects, because familiarity can make me clearly know the shortcomings and merits, beauty and ugliness of the people, and I can really catch truth, good, and beauty in life only by doing so, showing an elegant aspect of human nature.

　　对人的内在特性的解析，我往往寄托在画面细节的挖掘与深情描绘上，将细节的敏锐与人物性格的内在情性进行有效的嫁接，由此得到一种具体可视的性格形象和由此基础上构筑而成的人格基因。

　　Also, I often manifest my analysis of human inner earmarks by the portrait of the nicety of the picture and the effective combination of the points with human emotional traits, to get a picture with personal characteristics.

　　萧：在您的职业坚守中，我们会看到艺术理想成为原本的动力，转化成活跃的个性，进而与我们灵魂的内在秩序结合为一种自由的和谐状态。写实艺术更需要在熟知的事物中分辨出细微的所见与真诚，在艺术的理想中使外在的事物还原成具有心灵性的事物，我想请您分享作为艺术家，内心如何实现对这种理想美的监护与执守?

　　Xiao: In your career, we know, artistic ideals are the basic reason for your creation. When ideals come true, I think your heart would be in free harmony. Please allow us to share the happy experience with you, the wonderful state in the ideal.

　　徐：鉴于人的社会差异，对美的理解亦各有秋千。我认为美应该是内在和含蓄的，理想之美似乎比现实美更具魅力。喧闹的当下，对美的定义也许有所变化，对美的监护与执守确实让我们有时无能为力。人们对美的演绎尺度它是时代性的，永恒的美不会变改，坚守应是一份责任。

　　Xu: Humans have different backgrounds so they have various understandings of beauty. I think that beauty should be internal and implicit and that ideal beauty seems to be more attractive than real beauty. Current society is full of chaos and the definition of beauty would vary. But nevertheless to care about and maintain beauty is a responsibility.

　　外在的差异和现实的纷争并不能左右我们内心的取向，作为艺术家，言行一致，心性合一，缘于生活的虔诚，我们会通过作品诠释那份我们对超越现实生活美的理解，并在此基础上对美的发展作出新的提示。生活中的行为无时不在提醒我们对事物进行分析过滤，进而决定行为指向。艺术家肩负一种美的责任，通过剔除生活中的俗气诟病，踏上一种通往理想美的征途，这注定是一条悲壮的英雄不归路。艺术家的内心应时刻充满理想，这种理想能让我们在生的希望中，发现生命的尊贵和来自远方的光明。当我们拥有一颗赤子之心，真诚地接纳外在的事物，由此我们便能慰藉那颗焦灼的灵魂。

　　External difference and real dispute in reality shouldn’t be over our orientation. As artists, we should make our thoughts match our behaviours, letting our mind combine with our nature. Out of deep reverence for life, we should show our understandings in our works of beauty being above reality and therefore make a new enlightenment of beauty. Artists bear a responsibility for beauty. Life also commonly reminds us that the road to ideal beauty is not smooth. However, as long as we are full of ideals, constantly explore and use new ideas and new techniques, and are genuinely open-minded to foreign things, we can be successful, our anxious souls being able to get comforted.